Neverwhere Discussion Part Two

Neverwhere Discussion Part Two

Hi everyone. Today we embark on part two of our discussion of Neil Gaiman’s Neverwhere courtesy of Carl at Stainless Steel Droppings. Carl has prepared the questions below. I hope you’ll join us!

1. Chapter 6 begins with Richard chanting the mantra, “I want to go home”.  How do you feel about Richard and his reactions at this point to the unexpected adventure he finds himself on?

More than once during this section I sensed allusions, the first being Wizard of Oz. The difference is that Dorothy had a home to go home to. Auntie Em, Jessica is not. When he wants to go home, I feel Richard is speaking more from a petulant fear than from any true homesickness. Personally, I hope he doesn’t go home.

I was gratified that following his capture of the key, the narrator observes that Richard looked less boyish “as if he had begun to grow up.” Peter Pan, anyone?

2.  The Marquis de Carabas was even more mysterious and cagey during the first part of this week’s reading.  What were your reactions to him/thoughts about him as you followed his activities?

In typical Gaiman fashion, the author turns our expectations on their heads. The marquis muses to himself that he is neither good nor brave. In the next tortured breath, he acts in a manner seemingly both good and brave when he “spat a gob of scarlet blood into Mr. Vandemar’s face.”

I was plenty worried when the marquis arranged a meeting with our arch villains, but I believe (in part because the marquis knows full well the consequences of his actions) that it is all in selfless service of Door.

3.  How did you feel about the Ordeal of the Key?

I found the blackfriars pretty interesting. At first they appear doddering, even insensitive, but they seem to be observers compelled but rather powerless. In some ways more the archetype of angels than the angel himself in that they watch and guide but ultimately the human charts his course.

In the end after Richard gains the key, the abbot says, “God help us all.” With black friars as counterpoint to gold angel, I’m thinking lead vs. gold.

4.  This section of the book is filled with moments.  Small, sometimes quite significant, moments that pass within a few pages but stick with you.  What are one or two of these that you haven’t discussed yet that stood out to you, or that you particularly enjoyed.

I wanted to stay all night with the angel. The beauty of the writing and scene setting kept me spellbound. And I was drooling for a goblet of that delectable golden wine!

Later I was surprised by the viciousness of the hangover. Methinks perhaps this golden angel path may be another Gaiman sleight of hand–what appears light may prove dark. Now my mind is drifting to Shakespeare and his casks of gold, silver,  and lead–with gold and silver suspect. Much of the below world is lead, and the better for it.

5.  Any other things/ideas that you want to talk about from this section of the book?

Epiphany. OMG. (Sorry, I had to slip into valleygirlspeak for a moment.) I was like, you know, smacking my head and thinking Campbell’s Hero’s Journey. From there I started creating a mental lesson plan for my students. There are so many possibilities for the various steps that I want to see what students can conjure.

However, I will finish the book first to determine appropriate ages, maybe 8th grade and up. I have a feeling the book will morph again and again. Perhaps the dark will become darker still.

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23 thoughts on “Neverwhere Discussion Part Two

  1. Yes, very Peter Pan. I too love that moment of the story. Richard’s reluctance and his penchant for being dragged to and fro all seems to come to a head when he willing takes on the Ordeal. He’s doing it because he thinks it will get him home, and even though we all think his “home” is horrible, at least at that point he is beginning to make his own decisions. I love that Gaiman created that moment and captured it and shared it with the readers. A shift has been made in the fabric of who Richard is and it is a nice shift to see.

    I’m not sure anything the Marquis does is entirely “selfless”, but as I mentioned elsewhere, a healthy dose of self-preservation is probably a key ingredient to actually surviving in London Below. I’m not sure being entirely selfless in London Below would be a safe thing to do.

    The friars are an interesting counterpoint to Islington. You don’t know quite what to think of them given the deaths that so many have come by in their interactions with the friars, and yet there is something very ominous about their fears once someone wins the key.

    The wine scene is interesting in that it does give Richard and Door a moment of peace and happiness. We are able to see them let their guard down and have fun. But then they pay the price for that, albeit briefly, with their hangovers.

    I’m super intrigued by your epiphany and will want to hear more.

    1. I think that my strong reaction to the ‘ordeal passage’ comes from my frustration with Richard. I trust that he is strong enough to withstand this whole ordeal (back to “I want to go home!”) and not just the one that will get him a key … and when he seems to succumb to the whoie ‘trick’ of the ordeal … damn! I felt like he was being manipulated and I HATE manipulation.

      As for the Black Friars, my gut tells me that they are telling us something dire …

      1. Yes, I agree with the manipulation although even when he is being tricked, a part of him tries to hold onto that knowledge. The bead as talisman helps him resist.

    2. Funny, at that point I didn’t feel Richard was thinking only of himself. I thought he was thinking of Door’s welfare as well. Sort of like in the Wizard of Oz, each character begins with his or her own agenda, but soon they are all pulling together to help each other.

      Maybe when I finish the book I will take a stab at mapping out what I see as Richard’s hero’s journey.

      1. I think he’s thinking of that too, but I also believe that since he’s suddenly heard that “going home” is possible that he has perked up and become more engaged in the adventure.

      2. I agree with Carl, but at the same time I don’t think that Richard really can go home now. Even if he gets back, he’ll be changed by his adventures Below and won’t be able to transition back into that society.

        1. Something must change before Richard can go home. Jessica needs to really “see” him (she’s getting closer at the museum), or Richard will need to make a different love choice, i.e. Door, in which case the notion of “home” will change.

        2. Grace, your comment about him going home reminds me of the scene in The Lord of the Rings where Frodo says that the Shire is saved, but not for him. It was so profound to read Tolkien’s words, years later for the first time as an adult, when as a kid I often wondered about how characters in books and movies could return to any degree of normality after being on such wild adventures. How could the kids in Narnia ever stomach the day to day existence back in the “real” world? How could Han and Luke and Leia just settle down after the long war and start to live a “normal” life? Its all about the nature of change and what that change does to you and I think Richard’s journey is so emblematic of that.

  2. Peter Pan indeed. Perhaps letting go of our fears, like Richard after the Ordeal, is part of growing up – emotionally and such. I also liked how Richard asked for that cup of tea first thing out of the Ordeal!

  3. I think you’re right about Richard speaking from a place of fear. Home wasn’t all that spectacular, but he wasn’t in constant fear for his life there, either!

    1. Hi Emily,
      It’s interesting that in the final section (that I just started), Richard once again says, “I want to go home” when he experiences fear. I’m so curious about his final transformation.

  4. I’m glad you mentioned the hangovers – when I read that bit I stopped to think about it. I’m not sure that wine from an angel – even if it’s Atlantean – ought to leave you with a hangover. I’m not trusting anyone!
    Gaiman could have written the book from another point of view, couldn’t he, with the Marquis as one of those flawed heroes. Depending on how things turn out, of course.

  5. Peter Pan, Wizard of Oz, Gaiman has a knack for invoking poular culture (and history etc.) to support his stories while still being totally unique and writing beautifully. I loved the part with Islington too.

    1. His ability to weave it all in is so cool. I haven’t even finished the book, but I already feel I need to re-read it just to hunt for missed allusions.

  6. I get different things out of the story every time I read it. Although I’ve focused on my feelings about Richard in past read-throughs, this time I was much more intensely focused on it and discovered things I hadn’t noticed before, like how Richard does occasionally take independent actions, starting with picking up Door.

    1. Yes, and that one act sets everything else in motion. The fact that he can really “see” her when others pass her by speaks to his hero potential. He inspires me with his refusal to give up.

          1. I certainly hope that if someone fell in front of me and was covered with blood that I would do all I could to help them. That would in no way include me taking them back to my home.

          2. You’re right, of course. I had forgotten about the covered in blood part. I’d call in my brother the nurse (also a huge, HUGE Gaiman fan). He would be surprised about her ability to heal herself, but then I’d remind him that we had entered the land of Neverwhere.

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